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Zinet Kemal on starting over, infosec for kids and the importance of mentorship
Guest:
Zinet Kemal
Published:
Updated:
Duration:
41 min
Episode summary
Zinet Kemal is an infosec powerhouse. After emigrating from Ethiopia to Minnesota with her husband, she started her life over. She left behind her community and career as a lawyer and dived into the world of information security.
She has since become a children’s book author and works as a cloud security engineer for Best Buy, while raising her four kids and completing her master’s degree in cybersecurity from Georgia Tech University.
In the latest episode of WE’RE IN!, Zinet shares how she published two children’s books during the pandemic, “Proud in Her Hijab” and “Oh, No … Hacked Again!: A Story About Online Safety,” and about her work with Black Girls in Cyber. Listen to the episode to hear more about:
How you can teach kids (and grandparents) about cybersecurity
Zinet’s journey from immigrant to best selling author
Competitions can open the door Zinet had no exposure to security until she joined a cyber defense competition in the last year of her computer science degree in 2017, which set her career direction.
Start safety talks when kids go online Zinet wrote Oh, No ... Hacked Again! after two of her children's gaming accounts were hacked, arguing that kids need lessons on passwords, MFA, and telling a trusted adult as soon as they have internet access.
Teach through stories, not lectures Her books use her own children as characters, include a glossary of terms like Wi-Fi and cybersecurity, and are meant to start conversations between parents and kids aged six to 12.
Allies can share the mic Zinet points to Share the Mic in Cyber as a model where allies promote, fund scholarships for, and vouch for underrepresented professionals when they are not in the room.
Prior careers are transferable Zinet notes that immigrants often treat their earlier credentials as worthless, but she now draws on her law background and ties past roles in IT audit and AppSec to new jobs.
Notable quotes
If you have the passion, you can do it too. Like, if I can do it, you can do it.
We don't say that it's too early, but we always tend to think about teaching them about online safety and cybersecurity is too early.
Security is all about enabling the business.
It has to be something with a story that they can relate and then seeing, oh my god. This happened to me as well.
Questions this episode answers
How did Zinet Kemal move from law into cybersecurity?
After moving from Ethiopia to the US, she earned an associate's degree in computer programming at a community college and then studied computer science. A cyber defense competition in her final year sparked her interest in security. Read this section
When should parents talk to kids about cybersecurity?
Zinet says the moment kids are on the internet. Anyone can be a target, kids are more vulnerable, and they should know to go to a parent or trusted adult when something goes wrong. Read this section
What is Black Girls in Cyber?
It is an organization that advocates for diversity in cybersecurity, privacy, and STEM and runs cohorts to train people breaking into the field. Zinet joined as a volunteer and serves on the board as co-director of branding and social media. Read this section
What does a cloud security engineer do?
Zinet works with cloud operations, architects, engineers, and developers to define what secure looks like in the cloud during migration from data centers, including secure configuration guidelines and detection. Read this section
How can allies support diversity in cybersecurity?
Zinet suggests genuine support such as promoting underrepresented professionals, funding scholarships, and advocating for them when they are not in the room, as the Share the Mic in Cyber movement does. Read this section
About the guest
Zinet Kemal moved from Ethiopia to Minnesota, leaving a career in law, and retrained in computer programming and computer science before discovering cybersecurity through a cyber defense competition in 2017. At the time of recording, she was an associate cloud security engineer at Best Buy, a board member and co-director of branding and social media at Black Girls in Cyber, and a graduate student at Georgia Tech. She is the author of the children's books Proud in Her Hijab and Oh, No ... Hacked Again!
And I'm Bella DeShantz-Cook. Today, we are talking to Zinet Kemal who wrote Oh No Hacked Again, a children's book about cybersecurity, which is pretty cool. Jeremiah, I know you've got a three year old. Do you have lots of cybersecurity children's books on your shelf already?
I don't, but I'm definitely gonna be getting this one. I love the idea of sharing these concepts with my daughter. This is an amazing book written by an inspirational leader in this field. Zinet is also an award winning cybersecurity professional, keynote speaker, and currently works in cloud security. We'll talk to her in a bit, but first, a word from our sponsor.
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So thank you so much for joining the show today, Zinet. We're super excited to have you here. Kinda wanted to ask the question around your transition from law into cybersecurity. What inspired you to make that move in the first place?
Yeah. Thank you for having me on. I'm really excited to be here. My name is Zinet Kemal. I'm a Baha'uer and a wife and an author and a cybersecurity professional. But to answer your question, so, you know, I moved from Ethiopia to The US nine years ago. And like you mentioned, I was in the legal field, you know, moving here and just seeing the opportunity. I've always wanted to be in technology. So, I joined a local community college. Goal at that point was to study programming, which I have no background, and to become a programmer or a developer, which, again, I don't have any idea, but just enrolled into that program. Did my associate's degree in computer programming two years later, and then transitioned to a four year degree again to do computer science because still things didn't make sense.
Lack of the background, and then also other factors situated in new continent and a new country coming from Ethiopia and a different background. So, last year of my undergrad program, doing my computer science program there, I discovered this competition, a cyber defense competition. I joined that team, ultimately, at the end of that, up until then, I haven't had any exposure with cybersecurity or, you know, as a course or as part of the program. It was just one elective course that we needed to take. And then, you know, through that exposure, you know, that sparked my interest to work in in cybersecurity field, to answer it shortly, but that that was that was the the moment when I knew that, you know, like, I should... And and that's not long time ago. It was, like, in '20...
Yeah. Like I mentioned, you know, not having the background because in law school, you don't get any math classes or nothing computing. And the fact that, you know, I grew up knowing no technology, no computers, you know, even in up until I... Even in higher education law school, we don't have computers. We don't have access to Internet. We just have books that we take turns to do, you know, from library. So the math having that background... And I talked about this last time when I was doing the SANS keynote speaking. When I came to The US, I probably knew, like, Microsoft Word and Paint and not even Excel Word. Like, I didn't have any of the... Like, the lack of that background and just the intimidation of it, not having that experience. When I was attending those classes, I was immediately jumped into the main courses of the programming, HTML, into that programming classes, not having the computing concepts, the math classes, just new country, new continent, just the dynamics of adjusting and navigating a new system in general.
Plus, I was seven months pregnant with my second one. I had a toddler. It was just a new whole thing. So... Yeah. So... And we knew no one. Yeah. We knew no one when we moved to Minnesota. The only reason we picked Minnesota because a lot of people asked us, out of all the states, why did you pick Minnesota? And the reason was when we got that opportunity to come here, we only knew. Someone through my husband who he knew from high school, he hadn't spoken to her in a while, he just messaged her on Facebook Messenger and she said, Yeah, you can come here, but I'm going back to Ethiopia, because she hasn't gotten back in eight years since she came here through a refugee system. And then, so we didn't have an option, we just came here. She was able to guide us only for those four days, and then she left then me, seven months pregnant, toddler and my husband, jobless, you know, no snow.
We don't know snow in Ethiopia. It's thirteen months of sunshine always. So, just that adjustment is, I think, what has been challenging. And then just, you know, people talking about... Like, I have have done this project. You hear people talking about, I have done this project in high school, and that was intimidating because what was I doing in high school? Like, we didn't have computers. We didn't have access to that. So all of those things.
You mentioned earlier that you knew you wanted to get into technology, but hearing about your background, not being exposed to technology, to computers at a young age, what made you sure that this was definitely a field you were interested in?
Yeah. So, I mean, I've always been fascinated by technology. It's just not having that access, but I knew about technology, you know, what it does, like how it can be used to help solve problems. And there are... Like, my husband studied computer science back in Ethiopia. That's what we made at the university. Like, I've seen him code and stuff. But once you are in a certain field, you cannot change. Like, that's how the system is set up. Like, in high school, if you are in a social sciences route, you can... There are only certain fields that you can be in. And I myself said multiple times, self eliminated myself from math classes because I've always thought that I'm not good at math. So I've never navigated the route of natural sciences where when it's time to go to the university, you have certain options to be in those spaces only.
Yeah, but I mean, I knew about it. And then people talk about technology is huge and healthcare is huge coming here, so I have to do some thinking when I decided that I'm going to restart and start from scratch in a new country. Yeah.
So we talked a little bit about the challenges. I can't even imagine some of the stuff that you were going through, like trying to put your like. I'm trying to put myself in that situation. It sounds like almost everything in your life was changing all at once. You were kind of just going for it, like new living situation, new career field, all of this all at once, which is really impressive. And I'm wondering, what were the things that sort of kept you going? What inspired you about the field, the positive things that made you know that it was worth it to go through all of this?
Yeah. I think in the beginning, especially, you know, you know, before moving here, I will... We also had an opportunity to to pursue grad program elsewhere, a scholarship. So when we got this opportunity, oh, we thought, you know, for our kids and for our growing family, it would be a good idea to go there because it's a once in a lifetime opportunity that you get, you know, a diversity visa. That's how we got here. So, it's just, you know, the endless opportunities. Like, what what what excuses do I have? I have the access to sign. I have the opportunity, so why not? And then just, being able to become a good role model for my kids. And then just seeing a bright future, right? At that point, it can be challenging. I had my second child, which is my first daughter, right after we settled in. There were challenges because my husband had to work all day and then being able to...
At that point, I was just preparing myself to go back to school, watching a jealous toddler, which happens whenever another newborn is in the house. When we find out that they're not moving the house anymore, they just get jealous and just navigating that and just post partum issues, just being alone, coming from a community based system and just being alone because we knew no one. There are a lot of challenges with those as well. But just seeing the bright future, I've never at any point felt like you know, I had to look back, but look in the future, look ahead and see what are the possibilities. Like, what could I do with me and the opportunity that I have? And I think that that mindset kept me going always. Yeah.
Absolutely. And I know I've heard you speak about making this transition and wanting to help others get into this space as well. And you clearly you had the drive, you had the motivation. What are some things, though, beyond just sharing your perspective and your story here? What are pieces of advice that you'd maybe others who are trying to do a similar transition?
I would say, like, I would I wouldn't say, like, everybody go to cybersecurity, but, like, if you have the passion and and the need, like, if you have the interest, like, I've I've been fortunate enough to see that early on, like, even if it's the last year of my, you know, computer science degree, which, you know, through that competition that I mentioned. But, you know, it's it's like, if if you believe in yourself and you you can do it, like, you do belong in this... In such spaces. Like, if you have that interest, then I think that's been the the mantra that I have been, you know, saying all the time. Like, if you if you have the passion, you can do it too. Like, if I can do it, you can do it. Like, I have had a million excuses that I could I could have been giving, but that didn't limit me, like, from making that transition.
Yeah. Absolutely. I feel like sometimes just reminding yourself or even hearing someone else say, like, hey. You belong here. If you're excited about this, you belong here. I think that's a mantra that I've come back to a lot in my own journey in this field. Just hearing, You belong here, it helps.
And it's not easy, right, especially when it's... When you are in a field that's continuously evolving, like, to to get hit by those feelings of, oh my god. What am I doing here? I don't know what I'm doing. I I have... I always have those moments. You know? So it's always good to have that reminder. Like, there's a reason for me being here, you know, too.
There's a particular thing I I heard a mentor of mine speak about it once, impostor syndrome. And when he was giving that talk, I'm like, I feel that too. And then since then, I've seen others sort of come out and say, you know, I feel impostor syndrome all the time being here. And and it points back to your statement that you just made. And I think it was... It's it's so simple yet eloquently stated that, you know, if you feel happy in this space, you belong here. If you're excited by this space, you belong here sort of a thing. Switching gears just slightly for our listeners, I see in the background, there's there's sort of two books that you've got, and I know that you've written a couple of books. One of them... Or your first book is an award winning book called Proud in Her Hijab. And how did you... I I was just kinda wondering how did you get into writing children's books?
Yeah. The pandemic. I'll blame the pandemic. You know, in 2020, we... You know, I have four kids, three different classes, plus a baby. You know, they completely transitioned suddenly to, you know, distance learning, and we have support to them plus, you know, doing full time job with my my husband and myself working remotely. And then we have a baby at that point in the beginning of the pandemic. He he was four months. Now he's 2.5 years old. I don't know how that happened, but who's counting time since the pandemic? Right? So, yeah, it was... The book came about... So I've never written anything. I've never been an author. It was just coming from, you know, how do I solve a problem? You know, like, let's just write a book, you know? Twenty twenty one, March, I think it's gonna be a year soon that, you know, I published the first book, like we mentioned, Proud in Her Hijab.
It's a story of family strength, identity and empowerment. And it's coming out of, you know, the questions from my own kids having similar questions. You know, they're bringing questions about their hair braids, their hair texture and types and their hijab. Like, you know, when you're spending your days with diverse group of people, like in school, depending on where you're going, you get asked questions and usually they bring that to their parents. And I thought, you know, if these questions are asked here, probably it is also happening in another household. So I thought, let's teach ourselves how to self publish and publish a book. So that's what I did, and I just started... The reason why have drawn Clubhouse up is to find rooms and listen into how authors, like, publish a book and whatever they're writing, how do they make it a book, how to get an ISBN, and all of those things.
So the main message of the book is really to empower and uplift girls who choose to wear hijab to be proud of themselves, their identities, and, you know, just to bring their whole selves as they are because there are a lot of, you know, mainstream media, a lot of things going on in the media that are, you know, stereotypical things that are going on, you know. So, just to let them know, like I see you, that's literally in the dedication of the book. And then to also create awareness for readers that, you know, a lot of these misconceptions are coming from not knowing. I truly believe that. So, creating awareness, especially for children, right? The importance of appreciating diversity and, you know, the importance of appreciating other people's faith and cultural differences, all of those things, because it's a multicultural book because I have snippets of things from, like, the food, Ethiopian food injera, the flatbread.
Which is delicious, by the way. I've I've had... I had my first Ethiopian food probably a year ago, and someone took me there. And I was like I was I was like, this is great.
Yeah. You can have it with any sauce, just not sugar. I I always say that. Not sugar stuff, but anything anything anything spicy. Yeah. Well, a lot of the foods are spicy, like, be it vegetarian. But, yeah, that was the... There are a lot of, you know, messages attached to the book, but that's how it came about. And I was pleased, you know, that it became, you know, Amazon number one bestseller and won a couple of awards too. But I just continue to get inspired by the messages, you know, I'm getting from the children and the parents and the read aloud events afterwards, you know, just how the message resonates with them and that even adults, like, telling me that, oh, I've learned a lot of things from the book even though it's a a book for a six to 12 year old age group.
Yeah. And that that one also... I also blame the kids now because they keep being the inspirations because when you have four kids, you never run out of inspirations. You know, during the pandemic, they were spending a lot of time, lot more than what they are allowed to online and, you know, online gaming, chatting, stuff. So I've noticed more than, I think, one occasion that my kids... I think two of them accounts got hacked from those gaming experiences. And so it's really about teaching kids the importance of online safety, password security, and MFA. You know, like, we we try to... We don't notice when we give them tablets and access to the internet. We don't say that it's too early, but we always tend to think about teaching them about online safety and cybersecurity is too early. So, I published it six months after the first one.
And looking back, I'm like, how did I do that? Because it's really difficult to do that. Like, you have to recover from doing the first one because I did it while learning and a lot of challenges also because you have to have interaction with an illustrator, making sure that your story gets captured appropriate because they're picture books too, describing them and having that portrayed the way you want it to be, And then designer working with a professional editor and then just to be able to do the second one was like, afterwards, I felt like I was burned out. But it's worth it because it's really important. We have to teach our kids the importance of online safety and also, you know, sparking interest for young readers to explore this field when they grow up, like STEM fields, cybersecurity in general, like to see that in as much as they're saying, I wanna be a doctor.
Wanna be... My kids wanna be princesses and sometimes artists. It depends. But my... Or a soccer player, none of the doctors and engineer things have been mentioned in this house. They just wanna be, you know, drawers, artists. But I've never seen anybody who says, like, I wanna be a cybersecurity professional. I mean, you can say that it's newer. Like, we don't even know what it is yet. We're figuring it out.
How do you figure out which age you're gonna kinda tailor the book for itself? Because I know, like, these kinds of concepts are hard for adults to grasp in some ways. So so how do you break it down for children to understand these things?
Yeah. So from the responses that I've gotten, like, they're, like, very simple. Like, they can understand it. But for me, I don't know. Maybe I am writing... I I... So all of the characters and the names are my kids. Like, all of the... My four kids are the characters. Even they're physically... Like, I literally sent to... Yeah. So, even their names because representation. Right? To seeing themselves in character wise and also seeing their names, like, that has been very important to me. So having that, going back to the question, I got... I lost track of it talking about that, but but it's it's dumb. So I know how they talk. I think seeing it from their perspective. So the second book's main character is my my my second kid. It's how she's eight years old. She loves online gaming and she got hacked and how she navigated that, how to operate safely online.
So, I know how they talk. I think it comes from being a mother to four kids maybe. And then also, are, you you have to involve like professional editors for the book so that it's age appropriate. And usually, I didn't have those problems where, oh, this is what they would say, this is what they would say, you know, versus an adult. And then at the back of the book, for both books, I have terms defined. For example, for the first book, have hijab defined for people who don't know hijab. There are people who are struggling to even pronounce it because it's Arabic word. I understand. And then you did it. You did great, by the way. And then Okay. And then I
Exactly. I know. I've I've heard people calling it Haji, but then I had to send, like, an audio training from Google, the the person always laughs and still manage to make a mistake, but we always laugh about it. But there are terms... For example, in the in the second book, I try to define the terms cybersecurity, internet, Wi Fi. There is a glossary vocabulary at the back of it, I wish I could show you. And then, you know, all of those things to make sure that, you know, as parents are having those conversations about factor authentication because the books are meant to be conversation starters and then to define... Like, I I don't even know, like, how to define that for a kid. But the definitions might still be difficult, but at least, you know, I tried, like, what it means, what an Internet is, what a Wi Fi is because six to 12 years of age, that's the age group. Because that's... I I... And I and I and I figured it, my my my experiments from my kids because my kids are...
When I wrote it, six year old, I have an eight year old, I have a 12 year old. So I have them, like, read it and tell me, like, is this something a 12 year old like? And my son would say, yeah. Totally. This is awesome. You know? And then sometimes they would tell me... Most of the time, they'll tell me it's lame. Like, it's lame. We don't do such words. Like, it's it's cringey. That's that's what they would use. This cringey. Yeah. They say cringey. Like, nobody says that. Mom, don't. Like... And then I would stop. But they didn't have to do that in life, but I always try to make sure that I run it by professional editors because it's for the kids. They deserve to see quality stuff, you know?
So one of the things that you mentioned earlier were these kind of conversations about cybersecurity where folks are giving their kids iPads and access to the Internet, but they're not having conversations about cybersecurity because, at least partly because it feels like these concepts are too complex to discuss with children. But like we just mentioned, you talked about your kids getting hacked on their online gaming. Is really important to have these conversations. So how do we sort of change adults and parents minds about when the appropriate time is to have these conversations?
Yeah. I think when whenever they're they're happening to the Internet, like, moment you're on the Internet. Right? And then just having that mindset that, you know, we always tend to have this myth about, you know, online security is that we always tend to have to assume that what would a hacker get from me? Like, our data isn't, you know, not valuable to anybody else, but that's not how it works. Anybody can be, you know, a a target for for for those cyber attacks, and kids are more vulnerable too. Like, I talked about, you know, a possible online predator situation that might have happened, you know, like how to have that open communication with your parents whenever those things happen. And I think that's what the book is centered is like always to go to your parents, go to an adult, someone that you trust to say that I'm having these issues.
What do I do? Because online predators, usually, they they like broken families and, like, families who don't talk to their parents because they tend to say... Because I've seen that with with my... In the stories that, you know, don't talk. I'm I'm your big brother. I'm your friend. Don't tell anybody. And then that's how they groom and, you know, whatever inappropriate things that they're setting the stage for. But I've had that touched in in the book as well. Now they're willing to learn versus, let me teach you cybersecurity. Here we go. Chapter one, cryptography. I didn't do that. It it has to be something with a story that they can relate and then seeing, oh my god. This happened to me as well.
This particular story, interestingly enough, sounds almost relevant for my particular grandparents, funny enough. And I say that because there's concepts that are difficult concepts, both, I think, for children to grasp and then at least for my grandparents because I spend a lot of time with them. My grandmother got her first smartphone probably a year ago that I sent her, and she's been spending a lot of time trying to understand it and and understand the concept of what the Internet is and and how you can get on the Facebook and and all of these sort of concepts around. But cybersecurity in general is an interesting concept that, you know, that she just has no fathom about. And so this seems like an interesting way to kind of introduce her to that as well.
I mean, just the general concepts and definitions remain the same when it comes to security. Like, enable your MFA. Like, it seems so easy, but do we do it? No. Unless we see someone that we know get hacked and then, oh my god, let me enable that. In the story, it talks about, like, the brother coming in and say, oh, by the way, enable MFA. And, you know, the the sister says, oh, what is that again? And then he'll say, I'll show you how to set it up. You know, it it further protects your account. And, you know, like, even if you're... You know, the bad guys have your password, then you don't have to worry about it. And then, you know... Yeah. I think it's really important.
So I saw... I think on your LinkedIn, I saw that you're active with Black Girls in Cyber, and I wondered if you could tell us a little bit about that organization and how you're involved with them.
Yeah. I I joined the organization as a volunteer at last year, I think, end of last year. It's a really great organization for advocating for diversity within cybersecurity, privacy, STEM fields. I am in the board. Like I said, I'm newer, in the board. So they have a lot of programs to bring in cohorts to train them in cybersecurity privacy. I am the co director in branding and social media. It's a really great organization for, you know, like finding your tribe and finding that confidence and training for people, you know, who are trying to break in into cybersecurity. And just, you know, sometimes you just train and know a couple of things to do, but I think you needed that guidance and mentorship and just seeing other people who are on the same boat struggling to get into the field or what might be the challenges specific to, for example, like, you know, people of color or, you know, black women, like, what are some of the things that they're facing?
And I think it's really important. So far, it's been great just volunteering and supporting the organization, and it's really growing too faster than expected.
I think what we've seen based off of what you said, there's been a growing number of organizations that are now currently aimed at increasing diversity in cybersecurity and technology in general. So organizations like, you know, Girls Who Code, Black Girls Code, Blacks in Tech, etcetera. I was wondering if you could share your particular opinion on why these organizations are important from a diversity perspective.
Yeah. I think, you know, everybody's experiences are different. You know, my experience as a woman in in in cybersecurity and another person's experience might be different. So I think it's important to have that shared experience of being, you know, what I'm seeing with the child and just being a black professional or a black woman professional within the industry. Like, how do I negotiate salary? Just being aware of those, like, pay gaps and how do we find that mentorship and support. I think it depends. I'm a member of Women in Cybersecurity first. I'm also a member of Empower Cybersecurity founded by Tia Hopkins. You might know her. And I know that they do similar things, but they have also their niche programmings that they do in terms of elevating that. Because when it comes to the statistics of it, too, there are less women.
We know that it's less diverse in the industry. There are less women. Up until recently, it was only 11% of women that identify as females and now it grew up to 24%. And when it comes to Black professionals and women and Black women within the industry, it goes down the number, I think if I'm not mistaken, 9% or so. So, the experiences, there might be shared experiences and there are experiences that are specific to a certain group of people. So, finding that support to each other and seeing that there are people who are in the industry that are willing to mentor and provide that guidance. And then, you know, seeing them, like, as a representation, like me seeing Tia or Talia, the founder of Black Girls in Cyber, or Mari, she's a woman in cyber jutsu, I think, Mari Galloway. Just seeing them just motivates me and tells me that, you know, I I do also belong in such spaces because I'm seeing those.
And that was part of the the book too. Like, you know, I have I have indicated that I can be a cybersecurity professional because after that problem was solved, she saw that her mom, aka me, was also in cyber professional. So I have my, know, illustrations in there. Just seeing that, you know, I can be too just like my mom. You know? She is a cool... You know? She's... It's it's dope that she's in cybersecurity. You know? So those representations are very important.
So I work in cybersecurity. I identify as a woman. And it's an experience... Like, it's a very specific experience. I remember the first time that I went to a woman centered conference. It was the Grace Hopper Conference. And I remember looking around and seeing mostly women and thinking just sort of like it was the first moment in my career that I really felt like I do belong here. Like, yeah, I'm Okay here. I belong in this field. And it's kind of interesting. I think sometimes it's easy to forget how talking about that shared experience is important and impactful. I know that you've talked about how important it is to increase representation, talk about representation in the tech industry, and you're on the board of Black Girls in Cyber. What are some ways that you can suggest that me and other folks in this field can help do that as well?
Yeah. And I think that... Share... I don't know if you know Share the Mic in Cyber by Camille Stewart and Lauren Zabierek and Caitlin. They they have founded this movement, you know, Share the Mic in Cyber, where allies would promote and and also not only just promoting on that day, but also providing scholarship and all of those things and just support, like genuine support, just being an advocate on on their behalf and just vouching for them and speaking whenever, you know, those people are not in that room and just appreciating, like, the importance of having those diversities for those businesses to the benefit of the business. Because I think the business benefits more from having diverse teams with diverse perspectives coming from different spaces to solve the cyber problem that we continue to face.
So speaking of getting more women in this field, I know that you currently work as a cloud security engineer. Can you tell us a little bit about what that's like or what your day to day is like?
So I joined six months ago, the organization of Fortune five hundred Best Buy as an associate cloud security engineer, and I've never worked in cloud environments before. And like I mentioned, you know, when I started my career, started as an IT auditor, then, you know, moved to state government working as an information security engineer in that space. And then, like I mentioned, six months ago, joined there. And I'm still navigating and learning, you know, it's a huge organization, still bookmarking stuff and not to get lost in a remote environment. But it's been an interesting thing. So, mainly our role is, you know, I work in a cloud security engineering space to make sure that what secure looks like in the cloud, we're in the cloud operation teams and other people, you know, definitely collaboration and making sure that what secure looks like in the cloud in the process of that data migration from data center to the cloud preparation, those secure configuration guidelines, working with the architects and the engineers and developers, and setting those guidelines and making sure that we're we're detecting them and providing those guidances in general.
I myself am a former Best Buy employee, but I worked at one of the local stores. I was a Geek Squad agent. Geek Squad. Sorry. I had to shout shout that mantra for a second. I had a blast. I thought it was a great organization to work for. They do a lot of things to help out the employees, and I really enjoyed my time there. So really cool to hear that you're happy to be working for them. So
Yeah. Yeah. Initially, I I wasn't even looking to get into cloud security. I was preparing myself getting, know, AWS Cloud Practitioner and CCSK from Cloud Security Alliance. And then SANS, also GCLD, the Cloud Security Essentials, that was the newer one. But, you know, LinkedIn sometimes can't live. You're present there. People would notice you and try to come and say, like, maybe you need to change and, like, come on over. And I was like, no. I'm I'm good. I have four kids. I I don't want any change. I'm good. When probably it was also coming from, like, I'm not ready. I'm not ready for for for that. But I took a bit, and I, you know, after months of those conversations going on, me saying, no, I'm not ready, and then they're being persistent. I made the transition and I'm glad I did. It was a really great fit. I'm learning a lot and I think that that was the whole point of it, you know, learning.
I'm also doing my grad school at Georgia Tech. Initially, I got accepted for information security track, after two or three courses, I thought, you know, because they have policy track and cyber infrastructure track, so I switched to policy. But you take... You know, it's mandatory that you take courses from other parts. It's supposed to be interdisciplinary, so it's been helpful in getting, you know, a little bit of everything from there. But so far, going well. Three more courses to go to finish.
Yeah, I think it's really interesting for folks that kind of have other areas of study or other careers before they get into cybersecurity. We're often able to kind of draw back on those previous experiences and see how they inform and impact the way that we operate in this field. And it sort of seems like you're having this sort of full circle moment where you're able to kind of draw on some of your experiences before being in this field. What is that like?
Yeah. Usually, though... Yeah. Usually, though, like, people, especially people coming like immigrants, I don't know, might be self imposed. Like, we tend to assume that anything that we have back home is worthless. Like, it doesn't... Because people start from scratch or, like, not being able to continue their career as they have started back home that we we... I don't know. Me and a lot of the people in the community I've seen, like, coming as a doctor and not being able to... Even coming with computer science degrees, not being able to find that employment here. So it might be self imposed. I've kind of pushed it, never talked about it until recently when I mentioned to people, like, say, What? You have a law degree? That's cool. Now I started talking about it. So I think it does, like, help, and there are a lot of things that you're bringing in, in terms of skills, transferable skills that might be pertinent to the cyber world as well.
So kind of looking in the future with some of the things you're working on, if you wanna share, you feel comfortable sharing, do you have, like, kind of a path that you would like to go down? Like, right now, you're kind of focusing on policy. But what does the future hold for Zinet, right, from a trajectory perspective?
Yeah. It's it's hard figuring out day by day, but I I I don't know. I just wanna be, you know, like, a valuable thought leader in the space in cybersecurity, being able to advocate for, like, diversity and just bettering how the industry looks like and then just being able to to other people, like in terms of the cloud security, cybersecurity, those are like my areas of interest and policy too. Was still having issues like, how do I tie like the policy with this one? But there will be time. And you mentioned it, right? They're not disparate. They're not separate things. One supports and complements another one, and we tend to have, like, Okay, we have seven to eight domains within cybersecurity. Cybersecurity isn't just one thing, but they're totally interdependent. Like, I started as an IT auditor, moved to information security, working on AppSec stuff, and now in cloud security.
So, a lot of the things as I was transitioning from roles to roles, I tend to talk about relevant things that I've worked in the past that are relevant to the job description that I'm currently applying for. Just making that connection and just talking about it and saying, you know, security is all about enabling the business. It's not one... It's not technology. Having those, common grounds that applies to every role, I think it ties it together. So, I would say, yeah, work on my public speaking fears. I'm working on that consistently by just facing them. Because my mentor, AJ Yawn, he always says, like, the only way to get over that is just by doing public speaking. I would say, okay, let's do it. And I just did. Yeah. I just did my first keynote speaking at at SANS two weeks ago. Yeah. It's been great. Yeah. Thank you so much. Yeah. So, yeah, as I was doing it, I feel like like some of the things are falling off.
Like, it wasn't easy because back in Ethiopia, over here, like, don't have that that mentorship. I didn't know that as a concept. Until 2020, I didn't have a mentor. So, that has been helpful. Just knowing that you get better at it the more you do it has been helpful. So, I always tend to think about whenever I get invited for podcasts or any place, especially after the books got out. You know, I get invited to a place and I was like, should I go or let me just pass it? And then, you know, I just go back and say, that's the only way to get better. And then I and I do it. Like, AJ's voice rings in my head, and I would just do it, you know?
So I think that is all of the questions that we had for you. We do just have one final, easier question to wrap things up, which is the question that we ask all of our guests. So what is something that you're comfortable sharing that we wouldn't know about you just from looking at your LinkedIn or other online social media?
Oh, okay. I would say like in the... By the end of pandemic, like... No, not end of pandemic, but in the beginning of pandemic twenty twenty, that's when I was coming off my maternity leave. You know, working from home. So, as of then and now, I was able to lose about, I think, 50 pounds just working from home and just losing the baby weight. And it's it's hard to lose baby weight, and especially if you're having eleven eleven pound babies, all four of them are eleven pounds for no apparent reason. They just like to come off so huge, and then they just... They're they're normal babies now. They're just normal sized, skinny babies. But I'm proud that I was able to lose just the amount of weight, where I was pre baby.
Thank you so much for being on the show. It's been a pleasure speaking with you. I learned so much from this conversation and hopefully look forward to seeing more from you in the future.
Thank you so much for joining us. If you like today's episode, please give us a five star rating and subscribe wherever you're listening to this. It'll really help us get noticed on your favorite podcast platforms. Also, share this episode with your friends. And if you haven't already, make sure to check out all the other really fascinating people that we've already interviewed. We're also open to suggestions. If you know someone we should be talking to, drop us a line at we'[email protected]. That's we're in podcast @synack.com.
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